No place for "really hardcore shooters"

[Creole Ned]

This article on eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=94754) on Rainbow Six Vegas 2 leads off with this (in reference to the original Ghost Recon):

Rainbow Six Vegas 2 game designer Phil Therien reckons Ubisoft will steer clear of "really hardcore only shooters" because "the market was too narrow for it to be a viable business choice".
Also:

no demo
co-op reduced from four players to two
single player is about one hour longer than R6V

Dear console developers,

Thank you for killing one of the game genres I like.

Love,
Ned

[Paladin]

These things come in cycles, and at the moment, there just isn't an independent developer making hardcore tactical shooters and major publishers won't fund one. I also agree you'll never see one on a console, but I don't think that means you won't ever see another really good one on PC. I think we need to go through another evolutionary step in shooters, and I think it's coming with "Left4Dead" and the new "Aliens" game. Developers have to see co-op titles be successful, and I think those have a chance to be. Granted, those aren't going to be super-tactical (although "Left4Dead" is going to include realistic weapons and force teamwork to be successful), but it isn't hard to imagine someone jumping on a realistic tactical shooter gametype for the next generation of co-op focused gameplay.

I really do think "co-op FPS" is the "next big thing" in gaming. We had years of Deathmatch (DOOM, Quake), followed by years of team-based CTF and elimination (UT, Counter-Strike). The demand is there, and someone will do it. It may be a European, or more likely Russian, developer that makes it, but I'm convinced it's coming.

[Q]

Also:

co-op reduced from four players to two



I guess they think people have no friends these days.

[Q]

The really sad part is that they could have just sold expansion packs for Raven Shield and people would have been happy with that.

[Creole Ned]

On co-op the dev said the maps were too small to fit four players ("Having more then [sic] four Rainbow bodies would have simply not fit in many places, so we had to move down to two"), which makes me wonder if your missions take place in broom closets or something.

[Shadowrat]

""co-op FPS" is the "next big thing"" The sad thing is, co-op was great in doom, quake, and quake2.

[Creole Ned]

Speaking of would-be hardcore shooters, Ubi has now purchased the name Tom Clancy outright from Tom Clancy. Tom Clancy will now be known as John Smith.

The best part of this rumored 20 million euro deal is Ubi's CEO saying this:

"....we've really decided now to go for an MMO on the Clancy name, which is big."

Tom Clancy's World of Clancycraft Online, where you (and thousands of others) can be Sam Fisher. Or one of them soldier guys from GRAW or something! Coming in 2011!

Story at Firing Squad (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=20087).

[jackrabbit]

At first I thought "OMG THIS IS BAD" and then I realized the last 10 or so games with Clancy's name have pretty much sucked. Then I remembered the last two books with Clancy's name pretty much sucked, and then I realized I will likely not buy anymore of either (Splinter Cell doesn't count) and then I realized "OMG I DON'T EVEN CARE."

[Circuit]

But you know you'll be playing that Tom Clancy MMO! Think of all the awesome XP!!

[Dg3Nr8]

and at the moment, there just isn't an independent developer making hardcore tactical shooters and major publishers won't fund one.

oh yes there is! Armed Assault 2! (http://www.arma2.com/)

ArmA (http://www.armedassault.com/) official site as well. I think the initial reviews were pretty hit and miss but apparently they've done a lot of work on the game and its a much better experience now than at launch.

[Paladin]

oh yes there is! Armed Assault 2! (http://www.arma2.com/)

ArmA (http://www.armedassault.com/) official site as well. I think the initial reviews were pretty hit and miss but apparently they've done a lot of work on the game and its a much better experience now than at launch.

I saw their website when I was looking for a game to bolster my claim that someone somewhere was making one. It bills itself as tactical, but then I read something about players being able to "jump in a tank and drive through buildings". That doesn't sounds nearly as tactical as Ned is looking for.

[Patton]

Vegas 2 is actually a really good game.

Also, you can still do Terrorist Hunt with 4 people.


Max # of players:
1-2 Players Story Co-op offline (split screen)
1-2 Players Story Co-op online
1-2 Players Terrorist Hunt offline (split screen)
2-4 Players Terrorist Hunt online.


The other reason they reduced the number of people in the story-mode coop is so that they could optimize the experience. In Vegas 1, the Story Mode coop was really just Terrorist hunt with a dead-silent approach in a helicopter, because there were no objectives given to you, there were no Helicopter overwatch voice messages letting you know what to do next, etc. It sucked.

In Vegas 2, the lead character has control of two AI teammates, and while the environments aren't Battlefield sized, they're not broom closets either. However, I can see how it would feel cramped with 4 human players.

[Dg3Nr8]

but then I read something about players being able to "jump in a tank and drive through buildings".

Did you ever think they might not have gotten to the third house thats made of bricks yet?

[Dg3Nr8]

and really, you can argue if driving a tank through a house is tactical or not but I know that sure as hell would do it!

[Q]

Vegas 2 is actually a really good game.

Also, you can still do Terrorist Hunt with 4 people.

The other reason they reduced the number of people in the story-mode coop is so that they could optimize the experience. In Vegas 1, the Story Mode coop was really just Terrorist hunt with a dead-silent approach in a helicopter, because there were no objectives given to you, there were no Helicopter overwatch voice messages letting you know what to do next, etc. It sucked.

In Vegas 2, the lead character has control of two AI teammates, and while the environments aren't Battlefield sized, they're not broom closets either. However, I can see how it would feel cramped with 4 human players.

I just really miss having big mission maps that you could play with 6-8 human players co-operatively, since that's how I played all of the R6/GR games up until they started limiting things to 4 players.

[Creole Ned]

My benchmark is what you could do in the original Ghost Recon (PC version) and Raven Shield. Four players in terrorist hunt mode is not bad but not ideal.

What were the player limits like in GRAW2? The PC version of that is pretty cheap these days (and Ubi made a point of saying the PC version was designed for the PC).

[Patton]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

Clearly there are some limitations that consoles have that PCs don't, but the game is so good that it's not something I miss.

It certainly isn't quite as tactical as the old Rainbow games, but it maintains a similar damage model, so you don't have to shoot someone 200 times to kill them, like in Gears of War. You're also not an unstoppable tank beast. If you're not in good cover you can be ripped up pretty quickly.

I think the cover system is something that adds to the Rainbow Six series. It actually makes you feel more like a member of an elite swat team when you can see you and your team line up on the corner, or stack up on a door.

Don't know why I'm telling you all this. I just want someone to play with. Hopefully I can get something going with Bri/El Mar/Fitty/Luci.

My benchmark is what you could do in the original Ghost Recon (PC version) and Raven Shield. Four players in terrorist hunt mode is not bad but not ideal.

What were the player limits like in GRAW2? The PC version of that is pretty cheap these days (and Ubi made a point of saying the PC version was designed for the PC).

That's what the said about GRAW1, but it still sucked pretty badly. I think the player limit in GRAW1 was 4. Not sure about the second one.

[Creole Ned]

Well, Q will probably never convert (and the bastard has a PS3, anyway, boo!) but I'm at least open to shooters on a console even if I prefer the PC's controls. Plus the console versions usually *are* the PC versions, so it's handy knowing the limits ahead of time.

[Patton]

The unfortunate thing is that developers can't seem to recreate the control scheme for the PC versions properly. They just port it over. Vegas 1 and GRAW were excellent examples. I would have liked both much more had the control FELT like a PC game. But what it felt more like playing a console game with a mouse a keyboard, where the control kinda felt "floaty" - that's the only way I can describe it.

[bridude]

IMO R6:LV is the best FPS for console for me. I can't really explain it but the controls just work really well. It's the only FPS console game where I can aim and hit something.

I tried some others like CoD,Halo, etc and I can't hit the broad side of a barn.

I'll pick up V2 either tonight or tomorrow so don't play it too much patton. :)

[Tai]

I have R6:V for the PC and it feels 'floaty' there too. So 'floaty' I couldn't stand it and didn't play it more than a few times. CoD4 on the PC seems has a much better feel to it. And I'm afraid while I have a 360, I'm also in the can't play FPS games on a console group. I just don't have the control necessary.

[Patton]

IMO R6:LV is the best FPS for console for me. I can't really explain it but the controls just work really well. It's the only FPS console game where I can aim and hit something.

I tried some others like CoD,Halo, etc and I can't hit the broad side of a barn.

I'll pick up V2 either tonight or tomorrow so don't play it too much patton. :)

Jodo, El Mar, and I played t hunt a bit yesterday. We could have used a fourth. :D

It is a fucking blast, dude.

[Paladin]

Ned, I couldn't find anything that specifically said what the limit was on GRAW 2 multiplayer, but I did see a screenshot of a server that showed 8/20 slots filled. I did find that it features 6 different game modes, including a new one called "assault vs. recon" which pits the Ghosts against the Mexican rebels. The Ghosts have to destroy specific targets while the Mexicans just have to eliminate all the Ghosts. Needless to say, it forces the Ghosts to play a stealth game. I actually liked the original GRAW, but the single-player didn't really suit my playstyle from the original GR. If there's enough interest in trying it, I'd be willing to pick up GRAW 2 to do some Multiplayer Martian Mayham.

While I'm asking, any interest in some original Ghost Recon multiplayer fun?

[Creole Ned]

One of the reviews on GameRankings suggested 24 players in the multiplayer modes. For terrorist hunt and other player vs. AI modes, I couldn't find a limit, though it seems reasonable to assume 4 as the maximum, possibly 8.

As for the original GR, I still have it installed on the server machine but I'd have to re-install it on the new PC. Any word on how it behaves under Vista? To be honest, I'd be surprised if we could wrangle enough people to play it or Raven Shield again, but it would be a pleasant surprise. :)

[Paladin]

Reading the Tech Support forums on Ghostrecon.net, it sounds like Ghost Recon and Desert Seige will install fine on Vista, but that Island Thunder may have issues. Some people can install/run it fine and others can't.

[Paladin]

I'm planning to pick up GRAW 2 Tuesday. I'll post my thoughts on multiplayer sometime after that.

Is anyone playing COD 4 multiplayer on PC?

[BoX]

I play cod4 at least twice a week on the pceess, I'm not awesome but I'm going for the gold ak47 which by my estimate I should have on october 25, 2015.

[Q]

Hot Deal!

[Tai]

Is anyone playing COD 4 multiplayer on PC?

I have it installed, am waiting for Ned's server.

[Paladin]

I picked up GRAW 2 at lunch today. My computer training turned out to be closer to Circuit City than I was expecting. Anyway, multiplayer game modes, from the manual:


Deathmatch
Team Deathmatch
Hamburger Hill (4 modes)
Seige
Assault vs. Recon


Hambuger Hill modes are:
Hamburger Hill - Team with the highest score at the end of the time wins
King of the Hill - Team holding the zone at the end wins, regardless of points
Complete Objective - Team that reaches the score goal first wins
Tug of War - Each team starts with set points (default is 200). By holding the hill, you steal points from your opponent. The winning team either steals all their opponents points or has the highest point total when time expires.

The manual does not give a max server size, presumably because it is hardware dependant. I'll try some online play tonight and post my thoughts on it.

[Paladin]

Ok, I've been messing with GRAW 2 for a couple of hours now. Here are some of my initial thoughts...

Single-player:
The interface has been tweaked to make it easier to give orders on the fly to your squadmates. This is all done via the mouse wheel. The upside is most orders can be given in first-person view without taking your hand off the mouse. The downside is it is incredibly easy to accidently shoot when you are giving orders. Squadmate AI is better than the original GRAW. They will use cover and I found them fairly adept at taking down enemies one on one. They are still very literal in following orders, and if you neglect to set a covering arc after moving them, don't expect them to shoot enemies even in plain sight. Still, this is definitely not a run-and-gun game. The first mission took me almost 45 minutes get through, and even then I lost 2 of my squad.

Multi-player:
I set up a LAN server and explored the Recon vs Assault mode. This mode does not seem to support bots, but the levels were quite large, and it seemed like for the Ghosts to successfully finish the map would be unlikely. You can set the number of rounds, and each team takes 1 turn on assault and 1 on recon per round. Taking a page from Raven Shield, the Recon team has a scout kit with heartbeat sensor, while the assault team has a kit that can remove and scramble the sensors.

I also tried a bit of Hamburger Hill online. GRAW 2 still uses the Gamespy browser, but it seemed to work pretty well. LAN games are supported as well, and if you don't want to mess with Gamespy, Lan via Hamachi might be an alternative. I found enemies hard to see. Gameplay on the pub server definitely seemed more "run n' gun" than single-player, but no more so than Raven Shield. On thing about multiplayer in GRAW 2 that does bother me. As you play rounds, you gain veteran points. Earn enough points (doesn't seem to take many) and you unlock better weapons. This is a bit of a pain coming from RS and GR where you could make all the unlocks available from the start. You also seem to be limited to the weapons in the kit your presented, so you can't just pick the primary weapon you want. That me be something that's fixable though, as it is an Unreal engine game and thus moddable.

Max server size appears to be 32, although most servers are running 24 or less. Co-op is limited to 4, all other multiplayer seem to be 32.

[Creole Ned]

Hamachi?

[Paladin]

Hamachi?

Hamachi (https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi/vpn.asp?lang=en) allows LAN over internet. Works with a good number of older games, should work ok for most TCP/IP games. Not sure about IPX/SPX protocol.

[Kermit]

Why don't you just install hamachi on the 2k3 server and not have to deal with the other crap?

I brought it up weeks ago (http://www.martiancartel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2171). Do try to keep up.

It's obviously not as good as a true hardware based VPN, but for what I need it for it works. I highly recommend it.

[Paladin]

I forgot how tough the GRAW games are. So far, I'm fairly impressed with the game. The squadmate A.I. is still dumb as a stump, but the level design so far has been spectacular. I do hate the way it hands out new mission objectives as you go, instead of giving you them all at the beginning and letting you decide how to approach it, but the maps are fairly linear, so it makes sense. You don't do alot of backtracking. The bad guys are damn hard to see sometimes, though. Even looking through a high-powered scope, I have a hard time seeing some until they move.

I'd love to try this in co-op if anyone else has it or is willing to get it. It is definitely closer in feel to original GR than the first GRAW, and the maps are not all urban. In fact, I haven't hit an urban map yet (but then, I'm still on mission 2).

[Paladin]

A really good interview with the head of Blackfoot Studios (http://grupo97.halconesrojos.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=209&Itemid=28)